Greetings, fellow Soulcasters! We’ve got a lot of information about Soulcasting and the mysterious Aimians to go over this week, as we delve into the (brief) journey of Kaza as she tries to find a way to save herself from transforming into smoke.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. This week includes only minor references to off-Roshar implications. It is, however, chock full of weird stuff that doesn’t affect the main storyline very much, as many of the Interludes are. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaza
WHERE: Akinah, Aimia
WHEN: 1174.1.3.4 (This was an eventful day in the main timeline—back in Part 1: Dalinar heard Evi’s name, Shallan/Veil went drinking, and Kaladin taught the parshmen to preserve their food supplies.)
Kaza, a Soulcaster, journeys with a ship full of sailors to Aimia. The sailors seek riches in this distant unknown land, but Kaza seeks only one thing—salvation. The Soulcaster she uses to transform things into smoke is slowly but surely transforming her into the same. As they approach, the other sailors slowly succumb to the poison one of their members has given them. Before Kaza also succumbs, the traitor reveals herself to be a Dysian Aimian, set to guard the secrets of this island. Kaza transforms herself into smoke just before the poison takes her, thereby gaining her own freedom.
The Singing Storm
Title: Kaza As usual with the interludes, the chapter title is the name of the POV character.
Heralds: Nalan, Skybreakers. Nalan is the Herald associated with the Essences smoke and fog, so it makes a lot of sense that he’s connected with this chapter.
Icon: Double Eye (indicating an interlude chapter)
Epigraph: None!
Stories & Songs
Everyone knew you didn’t linger around Aimia, though everyone had different explanations why. Some rumors told of a vengeful storm here, one that sought out and destroyed approaching ships. The strange wind they’d encountered—which didn’t match the timing of highstorm or Everstorm—seemed to support that.
L: So now the question is… who or what made this storm? Was it the Aimians themselves, or something far more powerful? What secrets does this island hold?!
AA: I can’t help thinking that some of those secrets are related to “the scouring of Aimia”—though how they’re related is sheer speculation. We know almost nothing of Aimia, Aimians, or the scouring, much less what on Roshar could create and maintain a standing storm!
AP: This interlude in particular brings me back to how I felt reading The Way Of Kings for the first time. The interludes are fascinating, but as a first look, it’s completely confusing at the same time! Prior to writing this week, I had to lean on the totally awesome Coppermind wiki, because I know I missed connections the first (and second and third!) time I read this chapter. I agree that the secrets are related to the scouring—which, for those of you (like me) who need a memory boost, was a major event at some point in the “recent” past that destroyed Aimia and scattered the Aimians across Roshar. Quick history lesson: Aimia was one of the ten kingdoms with an Oathgate. Akinah, where this interlude takes place, was the capital. So it’s very likely that the Oathgate was here, and could be part of the secret that the Aimians are trying to protect.
L: That sure doesn’t bode well for our heroes if they eventually try to open that gate!
She had come here because of another rumor, one spoken of only among her kind. Perhaps here, at last, she could find a cure for her condition.
The Aimians had known about Soulcasters. This was where you’d come to get the devices, in the old days. You’d come to the ancient island of Akinah.
If there was a secret of how to avoid death by the device she loved, she would find it here.
L: Really cool little nugget of knowledge that this is where the Soulcasters came from. Did the Aimians make them, or were they just stockpiling them like the Shin had done with the Honorblades?
AA: Hmmm. I’d just assumed that this was where they were made, but now that you mention it, the idea of the Aimians stockpiling them makes a lot more sense. It’s almost certain that the Soulcaster fabrials are remnants from the time of the Knights Radiant, since the modern artifabrians are able to repair them, but not make new ones. But why?
AP: Aimia seems like the “most Rosharan” kingdom to me. More than anywhere else, the Aimians are very much not human, and have really interesting abilities that seem tied to Roshar itself. The Dysian Aimians being made up of hordelings, for example. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were the source of creating soulcasters, at least prior to the scouring, since it’s a way to harvest a natural resource of Roshar (stormlight).
L: I had never considered that they were natives to Roshar and now I feel kind of dumb for never making that connection!
Flora & Fauna
“Generations of greatshells have died here, leaving their hearts.”
L: This is interesting to me, since I had sort of assumed that the greatshells were local to the Shattered Plains.
AA: Yeah… I had to go do some research. There’s a strong probability that the greatshells referenced here were the lanceryn, which humans assume (incorrectly, I understand) were wiped out in the scouring. Apparently, prior to the discovery of the chasmfiend greatshells on the Shattered Plains in recent years, it was accepted that all the critters who could produce the really big gemhearts were extinct. Now I’m starting to get really suspicious: the lanceryn, the chasmfiends, the Reshi islands, the storm-striders… I can’t help wondering if they’re all connected, perhaps as progressive stages of the greatshell lifecycle.
Well, anyway, with zero evidence to support this, my current loose theory is this: Before the humans came along and started harvesting them, the chasmfiends grew up (after another pupation or two) into lanceryn, who eventually made their way around to Aimia. Most died there, and some few continued their trek clockwise around the continent to eventually reach the Reshi Sea and become new islands, if they survive long enough. Still can’t quite figure out where the larkin fit in, though. They seem too smart to just be the very beginning stage of this lifecycle.
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AP: I think that’s a really interesting theory. But most Rosharan animals have shells of some kind. I don’t know if I buy that they are all connected.
AA: The only reason I threw in the larkin is that someone asked Sanderson if the lanceryn and larkin were the same thing, and he said, “There’s a little bit more than just [being] one and the same, but in some ways they are.”
[The cremling] had an odd shape, with large wings and a head that made it look like an axehound. Its carapace shimmered with dozens of colors.
L: Part of the cook? Another Aimian? I’d assume that there are probably a few around, keeping an eye on things.
AA: I assume it’s part of the cook, though I’ll grant you that we don’t know if there may be others here. Mostly, it’s our first “Oh, look, an odd cremling! Maybe it’s another Dysian!” moment.
AP: I know this one! That’s a larkin! The little dragon bugs that eat stormlight/investiture. Aimia is where they come from. They were thought to be extinct, and Rysn got one in Words of Radiance.
L: Oh, good catch, Aubree!
AA: GAK! Of course it is. That makes this another little piece of the puzzle that—I think—connects the larkin, lanceryn, and Reshi isles. (I’m including the islands because it was one of them that gifted the larkin to Rysn.) Whether the stormstriders and the chasmfiends are connected or merely similar life forms, I don’t know, but it seems solid that these three, at least, are linked.
Places & Peoples
This was her destiny. She was not a thing to be carted from place to place, not any longer.
Even as she righted herself, she felt in her pouch, seeking the comforting touch of her Soulcaster. Hers, no matter what the rulers of Liafor claimed. Had they spent their youths caressing it, learning its secrets? Had they spent their middle years in service, stepping—with each use—closer and closer to oblivion?
AA: It sounds like technically, this Soulcaster—both the fabrial and the wielder—are considered to be the property of the Liaforan royal house. Or at least they were, until Kaza decided otherwise. She repeats the “it was hers, no matter what they said” thought several times in the chapter, implying that she’s still partly trying to convince herself and justify her actions. And she partly believes it, because she’s the one paying the price for its use; I’m not going to disagree with her.
So he knew that she was the prince’s cousin. … “They locked me up each day, gave me comforts they assumed would keep me happy. They realized that at any moment, I could literally make walls and bonds turn to smoke.”
AA: Girl’s got a point—it’s really hard to lock up someone who can turn walls to smoke! (Even worse than someone with a Shardblade, maybe?) Perhaps she did exactly what they were afraid of—turned things to smoke as needed to get away, since there’s no way that the prince just let her—and the fabrial—go freely.
I’m trying to figure out which bothers her more: her treatment as “property” as though she’s merely the current wetware extension of the fabrial, or the fact that its use is turning her into smoke. The solution to both, at least in her eyes, is to take her destiny into her own hands. She ran away, selling the use of her fabrial to this ship captain, to try to find some way to avoid being consumed by the fabrial. One would guess that she saw what happened to her predecessor, was maybe even partially trained by that person, and wasn’t altogether happy about it. And yet…
Smoke, she whispered to the stone. Freedom in the air. Remember? She tempted it, picking at its memories of dancing free. Yes … freedom. She nearly gave in herself. How wonderful would it be to no longer fear? To soar into infinity on the air? To be free of mortal pains?
AA: At the same time she’s trying to find a “cure” she’s drawn to the freedom of just letting go. Ultimately, of course, she’ll do just that, but I find a certain fulfillment in the way it happens. She kept repeating that this was her destiny, her choice, and in the end it is. Rather than let the Sleepless put her permanently to sleep, and rather than let the fabrial keep leaching her apart bit by bit, Kaza deliberately uses the fabrial one last time, and chooses to go with the smoke of her Soulcasting.
Bummer for Liafor, though. That’s a valuable bit of tech they just lost.
It had dozens of names. The Rock of Secrets. The Void’s Playground. So melodramatic. She preferred the old name for the place: Akinah.
Supposedly, there had once been a great city here. But who would put a city on an island you couldn’t approach?
L: Well, presumably the island used to be more accessible, since all the spikes were Soulcast. Whatever happened here, the Aimians clearly don’t want anyone around now. But that may not have always been the case.
AA: Clearly there was a time when Akinah was a well-known city which welcomed travellers. Back in The Way of Kings, when Kabsal was explaining cymatics to Shallan, Akinah was one of the cities in his pictures. There’s enough information about the underlying rock formations and the addition of streets and buildings to show that it wasn’t always this semi-mythical place.
AP: Yeah, I totally expect that we will be going back to Akinah. The name of The Void’s Playground makes me really nervous though!! A reference to the scouring? Or maybe one of the Unmade is lurking around or otherwise involved here?
The cook began to hum. Pieces of her broke off. She crumbled to a pile of chittering little cremlings that moved out of her clothing, leaving it in a heap.
L: Dysian Aimian, right, Alice? Like we saw in Edgedancer? As opposed to the other type?
AA: Yep. Totally. Another one of the Sleepless, like Arclo. I sure would like to know just how many of these are wandering around.
AP: So this is what made me start giving the side eye to literally every cremling mentioned in the series!
Weighty Words
Kaza was, slowly, becoming smoke.
There was a hole in her cheek through which you could see her jaw and teeth. Lines of smoke rimmed the hole; the flesh seemed to be burning away. Air passed through it when she spoke, altering her voice, and she had to tip her head all the way back to drink anything.
The process was slow. She had a few years left until the Soulcasting killed her.
L: As a horror fan I really appreciate the creepiness of this.
AA: As a non-horror fan, I totally concur that it’s creepy, anyway! What I found fascinating was the sudden clear view of something that had only been hinted from another perspective. We’ve seen hints along the way that long use of a Soulcaster would affect the body of the user: for example, back in the scene in Words of Radiance where the Soulcaster ardents were making new windbreaks for the warcamp. At that time, Adolin remarked on the way one woman’s eyes “sparkled like gemstones themselves” and her skin had “hardened to something like stone” and she seemed almost like “a living statue.” It sounds weird and off-putting, but not too terrifying.
Then, all of a sudden, we see the effect of long use of a Soulcaster that transforms things to smoke. We observed that the ardents with the Alethi army slowly took on physical aspects resembling stone; now we see that Kaza is literally turning to smoke. It’s a bit of a shock to realize just how far this transformation goes! It makes me wonder if the ardents eventually turn to real statues, or if they are retired from service before it gets quite that far.
We know that the army also has Soulcasters which turn whatever-it-is to grain and meat. Now I wonder what they start to look like. ::shudder:: On second thought, I don’t want to know!
AP: Also a horror fan, also concur on absolute coolness/creepiness. Since the soulcasters are kept to the royal family, this is also something she would have expected, which adds another creepy layer to me. It’s probably also a way to assert institutional control and keep challengers to the throne to a minimum.
“It is blissful. I slowly connect to the device, and through it to Roshar.” … “I could show you. Feel my touch, and you can know. One moment, and then you will mingle with the air itself.”
L: Yeah, because that’s not creepy at all.
AA: It’s an extremely effective deterrent, though. I’m pretty sure he’d never have bothered her again, even if things had turned out differently on the island!
“I have begun to see the dark sky and the second sun, the creatures that lurk, hidden, around the cities of men.”
L: So she’s transitioning into Shadesmar, then. That makes sense from what we know of Jasnah and Shallan’s ventures into Soulcasting.
AA: I loved this! The more she uses the fabrial, the more she’s shifting from the Physical to the Cognitive realm.
AP: Which makes me really wonder what happens to her after her physical body turns to smoke. Does she exist in Shadesmar somewhere?
She closed her eyes, and felt the familiar sensation of being drawn into the other world. Of another will reinforcing her own, something commanding and powerful, attracted to her request for aid.
L: There’s so much fascinating information about Soulcasters in this chapter! Is this other will a sapient spren like the ones bonded to the Knights Radiant? I don’t see that being likely, given that those spren haven’t been very forthcoming with their aid to humanity until recently, and the Soulcasters have been doing this for a long, long time.
AA: I have another theory—which, again, I didn’t have time to ask about at the Skyward signing. I wonder if maybe the Soulcaster fabrials are formed in the same way as we suspect Shardplate is formed—from the marginally sentient cousin-spren to the “truespren” (as Syl calls them). I think that would be kind of cool. The other primary possibility, and one which creeps me out far more than Kaza turning to smoke, is that the fabrials are more like a Shardblade than a Shardplate… that they are truespren, locked in the form of a fabrial instead of a blade. That would be very not cool. The biggest argument against this is the Radiant we saw in Dalinar’s Midnight Essence vision, using a Healer fabrial to perform Regrowth despite not having the Progression surge herself. That would require that sapient spren were knowingly handed around, and often handed off to Radiants of different Orders who had some reason to think they’d need a Surge they couldn’t normally use. That seems problematic, at best.
AP: I’m on team trapped spren. I think that she’s calling the spren of the fabrial, who is getting stronger the more the fabrial is used.
L: This makes me wonder if the users of these objects in times of old were also being slowly transformed, or if they were protected against that because the spren were still “awake.”
She could not make it air again; her Soulcaster had only one mode, not the full three.
L: One of the other two is food, that’s for certain, right? Is the last stone? Or… is she talking about something else entirely here? It seems as if there would be more than just three…
AA: It seems like different Soulcasters are tuned to different things, but I can’t find any reason for a limit of three, other than that each fabrial holds three gemstones. We know the Alethi use fabrials to make stone and to make food, and the Azish have one that turns things to bronze. Whether those limitations are firm, or based on tradition, I really don’t know. I’m pretty sure that with the right combination of fabrial and gemstones, people using the Soulcaster fabrials could form any of the ten Essences; I just don’t know what the limitations of the fabrials are.
And two suns in the sky, one that drew her soul toward it.
L: Whoa. Wait a second. Is this new information? I feel like it is. What are the two suns, then? Are they maybe some sort of giant spren? Are they… the Shards?
AA: I have no proof of anything, but I assumed this was the same as the earlier reference to seeing the second sun, and “drawing her soul toward it” is connected somehow with shadows going the wrong direction, toward the Shadesmar sun instead of away from it. I… think there are implications to be drawn there, after I think about it with both hands for a while.
AP: I thought the same as Alice, that the second sun is in Shadesmar.
L: Oh, I definitely thought it was the one in Shadesmar, I just wonder if this sun is more than it seems…
AA: Ah. Well, I’m pretty sure it’s not a Shard, but I definitely think there’s something twisty about that Shadesmar sun. Are the soul and the shadow connected? There’s… there’s a whole essay in this, about shadows going toward Stormlight and acting funny in Shadesmar, and how/whether that is related to this idea of the soul. But don’t worry, I won’t dig into it here today!
Macabre Motivations
L: Shall we talk about the Aimians?
AP: Yes please, because I don’t totally get them and I always think I’m missing something!
AA: Heh. I’m pretty sure there’s a LOT we’re missing about the Aimians!
“I cannot speak,” the cook said, “even to sate a dying demand. There are those who could pull secrets from your soul, and the cost would be the ends of worlds.”
L: Worlds? Plural?! Well now. That’s a very interesting choice of words. This island must have something to do with the Shards, and the Cosmere as a whole!
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The Ruin of Kings
AP: Definitely something with cosmere implications! It also really makes me wonder who or what has that sort of ability. Have we seen them active already without knowing it??
AA: I’m reasonably sure that a Shard (Odium, for example?) could do this, and I suspect there are other Shards who might find it worthwhile to snatch a soul between the Physical and the Beyond, depending on what secrets we’re talking about. Which brings us back to… what secrets does this island hold?
L: So, the Aimians appear to be guardians of something very powerful.
AP: And very dangerous! It occurs to me that they could also be there primarily to keep people out, and what is on the island in.
AA: I was just thinking that. We don’t know much about the scouring of Aimia, but what if the Aimians did it themselves to keep some knowledge or artifacts from the rest of the world? Even more likely, there’s rumor that Dai-Gonarthis (a.k.a. The Black Fisher, and presumed but not proven to be one of the Unmade) was responsible for the scouring. Maybe the Aimians found a way to trap it there, and they’re keeping everyone from releasing it back into the rest of the world.
About the Aimians in general, after all this I have to wonder if they deliberately sacrificed many of their people as well as their homeland to protect the world—or worlds—from something dire. Odium? Or something worse?
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
The captain drew anticipationspren as he waited—ribbons that waved in the wind—and Kaza could see the beasts beyond, the creatures that accompanied the spren.
L: Always cool to see glimpses of the spren behind what we usually see of them on the cognitive realm.
AA: This was an interesting choice of words. Kaza thinks about “the beasts beyond” as creatures who accompany the spren she’s used to seeing. From Shallan and Eshonai we learned (and will learn more in Part 4) that what humans see in the Physical realm is only a small part of how a spren actually appears in the Cognitive realm. It’s a great reminder that characters are often wrong in how they see the world, and also that most of what Kaza knows is tradition passed down for many generations along with the fabrial.
AP: I think this is also one of the most ominous flags foreshadowing the epic trip through Shadesmar that will come later.
Quality Quotations
With a defiant shout, she pressed her hand to the rocky ground beneath her and demanded it change. When it became smoke, she went with it.
Her choice.
Her destiny.
AA: I just have to point out that at the end of this chapter, Liafor is down one Soulcaster, which I suspect isn’t going to make anyone in the court very happy. I wonder if the physical object is lying on the sand of Akinah, or if it somehow went with her into the Cognitive Realm.
AP: Or possibly at the bottom of a pretty large pit!
L: The Aimian was trying to pull it off of her towards the very end there, so I assumed that it would have reclaimed it after Kaza fully transforms.
Next week we’ll be continuing our foray into the Wonderful World of Roshar with the next interlude, about Taravangian. (Hoo boy.) In the meantime, join us in the comments!
Alice is coming down with a cold. Just thought y’all would like to know that. So you can be thankful that you aren’t – or commiserate, if you are.
Lyndsey is definitely not a collection of bugs in a human suit. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree is trying to catch a larkin of her very own. But is slightly concerned about the impending food bill.
I also newly wondered about the people constantly Soulcasting food for the armies on the Shattered Plains. They give this story a high score on my Scale of Fantasy Food System Realism despite being impossible in our world, but it turns out they now (presumably) pay a horrific price for it.
Though it’s nicely unusual for (drug-free) smoke to be spoken of in such terms of praise and exaltation.
Aw, chid-Kaza wanted to be a “natural historian.” :-(
Having a cook is a storming risky thing , if sometimes necessary.
Did the greatshells (allegedly) go to Akinah before the stone-spike barrier was created? I didn’t think they could access it afterward, if humans can’t do so without piercing the barrier.
“The Void’s Playground” is a fun name, if especially ominous on Roshar.
So happy we reached this chapter, and I love it for so many reasons.
First I think Brandon did an excellent job telling a beautiful yet tragic story about this woman in these brief pages, while simultaneously showing so much of the mechanics of savantism. This wasn’t just an info dump. It makes you hurt even as you learn.
Second, I really appreciate the inclusion of the references by Alice and Aubrey regarding what is occurring during this. I had no idea those events were co-terminus with this story. I can’t exactly say why, but that fact deepens the story for me. Makes it feel more encompassing. So thank you for that.
Third, the unique storm created to protect this island, separate from the Everstorm and presumably the Highstorm is very very interesting indeed. There is no surge I can think of off the top of my head that could replicate that, so the source could be is truly a puzzle. I cannot wait to find out more!
Fourth, it is also very interesting that Aimia seems to be the source of soulcasters. Why there and no where else? Another wonderful puzzle. Need more information!
Fifth, this is going to drive me nuts, because I am going to have to try multiple word combinations but I could have sworn there was explicit confirmation by Brandon or Peter, more than the WoB posted, that a larkin grows into a lanceryn. I will try and find it to hopefully prove I am not crazy. I have a crackpot theory regarding Rysn and her larkin. That it will grow into a laceryn, that in my mind looks like a giant bug/shelled dragon that Rysn will ride into battle. Hopefully Rysn will also be a Radiant by then, further making the image all the more epic :)
Sixth, I agree that I think soulcasters involve a trapped spren. From what we see of the Oathgate on the cognitive side, I theorize it is possible to form a bond for a radiant spren in a fabrial, so it is not necessarily “imprisoning” them, and they still gain a form of sapience so it is not seen as negatively. But it has to be done a certain way for it to be so. But that theory is pure conjecture.
Seventh, it has been confirmed via WoB that a radiant using transformation is insulated due to the spren bond. So Jasnah and Shallan can get away with it a lot more than someone using the fabrial.
Awesome chapter and awesome re-read! Loving it!
The hole in her cheek always reminds me of the book version of fight club. (The narrator spends a lot of the book with a hole through one cheek.)
At the very least, the great shells and the islands must be related. I hope we find out more. If the great shells are the same species as the islands though, how do the young get to the shattered plains? The big islands are mating out there.
Found it! It was on the 17th shard. Typed it below, its a WoP
Questioner
1. In WoK, Jasnah’s mention of this lanceryn befuddled me a lot. We know that it is a kind of greatshell with gemhearts native to Aimia, but except this, we know nothing. The translator interpreted it as “lance-beast”. I suspect he got it inspired because “lanceryn” is similar to “lance” which is a kind of weapon. I’d like to know whether this name origins from “lance” or not. If not, could you simply describe how this creature actually looks like, so I can come up with a new term?
2. So larkins are more like flying insects? I imagine they are a mixture of crab (or any crustacean), wasp, and little dragon. is that okay? (Do larkins really have reddish/brown crusts?)
Peter
The lanceryn and larkin are two names for the same creature. When it says lanceryn, it’s definitely referring only to the enormous greatshell version that is believed to be extinct. The name is not related to “lance”…. I think. The small larkin can be considered the cremling/larva version of the lanceryn.
edit: that makes me wonder, do larkins keep their stormlight eating ways when they mature into larceryns? If so, Rysn’s little pet has become quite the weapon for the good guys.
@3 If the great shells are the same species as the islands though, how do the young get to the shattered plains? The big islands are mating out there.
Maybe the great shell babies are small enough to get sucked up in the everstorm and then rain back down on the shattered plains?
So just a little tidbit, greatshells is a catch all term for all big shelled beasts. This includes chasmfiends, the santhid, the reshi islands, and the lanceryn. The chasmfiend adult form is just a bigger chasmfiend. We have seen one. It was the one that Dalinar caught it’s claw during the hunt. Brandon has confirmed it. We have not however see the larval stage yet to see why and how they get to the shattered plains. But regarding family trees, the santhids and chasmfiends are related (WoB for that). It is crazy how Brandon gets us all excited over local fauna life cycles lol.
You sure y’all aren’t overthinking it on this one? Sounds like a hordeling to me and a clue to the fact that there’s a Dysian Aimian around.
“She was not a thing to be carted from place to place, not any longer.” Rysn, why are you speaking in the wrong interlude? Seriously, I wasn’t looking for parallels, but that quote ….
Here’s a wild theory: remember how in Shadesmar, land is sea and sea is land? So in Shadesmar, the Void radiates light … the Shadesmar sun is Odium.
“Worlds? Plural?! Well now. That’s a very interesting choice of words. This island must have something to do with the Shards, and the Cosmere as a whole!” Well, remember that the Roshar system has three planets.
I believe it’s been mentioned that Shadesmar sun is actually a window into the Spiritual Realm. When people Soulcast they have a foot in both realms so it should be possible to see both ‘suns’ as they do so.
From book signings we know Culti gets a light and a storm too. Anyone think it’s a coincidence that the magic system associated with Cultivation (Fabrial Tech) is protected by a storm that is neither High or Ever? Brandon hides stuff in plain sight, throwing out things we don’t realize the significance of until later, sometimes much later. I sense Shenanigans!
Cool insights on the larceny life cycle.
@7 Austin
But it sure sounds like the description of a larkin. Check for comparison the description of Chiri Chiri from the Rysn interlude:
A couple thoughts:
Another reason for Nale being appropriate is the Aimians have a similar mission as Nale – killing those who are getting close to discovering something dangerous. Now, the question is, are the Aimians as misguided in their mission as he was?
We have actually seen what happens to Soulcaster-users for grain (well, we see them later this book) and the description is definitely still creepy to me. Probably even creepier than this description. I’m trying to decide if the meat or blood soulcaster would be the worst. (losing skin perhaps so that your muscles show through for the meat one? continually bleeding eyes/pores for blood?)
For related life-cycles, I hadn’t heard that santhids and chasmfiends are related. That seems really strange as both their forms and attitudes are so different. Giant jellyfish vs giant axehound are very different shapes. And the santhid seemed rather placid and dolphin like, while the chasmfiend is vicious. (not evil, but aggressive and territorial) I have always assumed that there are several types of greatshells and while they all have a several stage life-cycle, the largest ones are unrelated. Basically, if you get the “luck spren” you are an apex with no further transformations. Probably wrong, but that has been how I’ve thought of things so far.
Final question: Can a soulcaster be soulcast? Like, when Kaza turned to smoke I assume she transformed her clothing. She was also wearing the soulcaster, so… did it transorm too? Or is the soulcaster immune to transformations it causes? If it is immune to itself, is it also immune to other soulcasters?
@2 Scath: I like your thought about soulcasters being similar to the oathgates and having spren associated with them in a different sort of bond.
One of the theories going around is that Odium is not the final boss of the series, but will be the boss for the first half of the series. I wonder if whatever it is on Aimia, will end up being related to the final boss or final event of the series
I cannot remember. But I hope Soulcasters are advised of their ultimate fate before they accept the position as a Soulcaster. That is not something that should be learned years later when it is too late to reverse the process.
I wonder if the Aimians are aware of the Cosmere as a whole (i.e. that Roshar is just 1 planet in one solar system). Likewise, I wonder if they are powerful enough to attract the attention of the Shard Holders. Lastly, I would like to read a study from Khriss or some other Cosmere scholar about the Dysian Aimians.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@12 – Or the thing that will kill or drive off Odium – and / or the thing that wrecked Ashyn.
This might be my favorite interlude in the book except for Rysn’s later on. It answers a few questions-like how come no one goes to Aimia, and what’s up with soul casting people. But there are SO many more questions that come with it! ‘The Voids Playground’ would scare me a lot if I was Rosharan. Perhaps this is the place where humans first came to Roshar-then went to live in Shinovar which isn’t that far away. So the way off the planet is there somewhere. Maybe? And are all the greatshells really related that closely, or are they cousins-like there are snakes of many sizes, or other animals. And no wonder the poor soulcasters are so secretive-I would be too. So creepy!!
Good discussion this week. Get better Alice!
@7 Austin
I am with Aubrey on this one. Aimia is the source of larkins as per WoB, so although it could be reasoned to be apart of the Aimian, the description definitely fits with that of a larkin.
@9 EvilMonkey
Hmmmm, interesting. Brandon has not confirmed that fabrial tech is associated with Cultivation, just Old Magic, but it would be very interesting if it is, and if Cultivation has to do with that storm. Ooooo indeed! lol
@10 bird
I agree
@11 whitespine
Very interesting point. If a herald can be “insane” and his mission corrupted, then why not the aimians?
Here is the WoB about santhids and chasmfiends
Questioner
is there a relationship between the santhids and the chasmfiends
Brandon
Uhhh….Yes
Questioner
Besides them existing in the same place?
Brandon
Oh, direct relationship? No, but in the family trees there is, y’know
To illustrate, hippos are the closest living relative to whales. The first whales were typical land animals. They had long skulls and large carnivorous teeth. So they looked very very different than they do today. So evolution can take one species and all because of location and circumstance result in two species very very different from each other years and years later.
As to the soulcaster, I honestly do not know. If it functions like a shardblade (as in involves/contains a spren), then I think it would have a great resistance to the surges as it is heavily invested. So my first guess would be, it could be changed, but the amount of stormlight you would need to accomplish that would be problematic.
Thank you about the theory :)
@13 AndrewHB
I think that would depend on the kingdom and the people involved, though Kaza made a good point. You wouldn’t want to upset the person who can turn anything they touch into smoke, etc. So I would assume a large part would be either the ardentia, or operate similarly which is to say they are told upfront, but there is some sort of belief structure or means to keep the person voluntarily in service.
Carl makes a good point being there are multiple planets in this solar system, but for some reason I feel like the Aimians are cosmere aware, though I have no other proof than simply a hunch on my part.
Since everything has a spren the sun must have a spren, too. Is the Shadesmar sun that spren or something else?
@17 birgit
That is an interesting thought. On one hand my first thought would be to say no since we do see that sun on other planet’s cognitive realm, and they do not have spren on their planets, but on the same token Scadrial has mists, while Roshar has stones. So we cannot exactly assume all things will be the same from planet to planet. So could very well be. Hell, the sun could be the Sibling for all we know. Good point :)
“I cannot speak,” the cook said, “even to sate a dying demand. There are those who could pull secrets from your soul, and the cost would be the ends of worlds.”
I am guessing that “those who could pull secrets” from a dying soul is related to Moelach (not sure of spelling, too tired to look it up right now)?
@19 that’s an interesting thought.
Random sleep deprived connection/thought for the day – reading about the Soulcasters eventually turning into what they Soulcast kind of reminded me of the Ferrous magic in (the unpublished/uncanon) Aether of Night where eventually some of them just turn into big metal machines. I don’t think that means anything, but just another example of magic eventually coming wiht some kind of cost.
Theories on what is hidden on Aimia:
Dawnshards,
Source of the Oathpack or even the pact that keeps Odium trapped in the system.
His escape would certainly threaten many worlds…
We know from Mistborn: Secret History that metal glows brightly in the cognitive realm. What if the the shadesmar sun is just some huge thing made out of metal? Like a spaceship. Or maybe even the city of Silverlight?
@17 – Not everything has a spren. Everything has a bead, or in the case of humans, a floating light. Spren are manifestations of human concepts. The sun is an actual thing and wouldn’t have a spren.
@23 Kaladin’s mom says everything has a spren. :) Obviously that’s her opinion, but it did seem to be supported by a conversation he had with Syl about both the little blue spren he noticed around a stone he stuck to the wall and about his spears having spren. That said, I wonder if spren are restricted to Roshar itself (or the three planets) and since the system’s “sun” is not part of the planet, perhaps it doesn’t get one?
@19 necessary eagle
That certainly where my money is going, though I would imagine other entities could potentially hang out in the cognitive realm, and ask shadows before they go on to the beyond.
@20 Lisamarie
Nice connection!
@21 Brendan Morgan
All good points! Ah the mystery of Aimia
@22 toothlessjoe
If I recall correctly the reason metal glowed on Scadrial is because Ruin and Preservation put some of themselves in everything. So metal is not necessarily or inherently invested elsewhere. Though please do not confuse this statement with saying “god metals” aren’t a thing. They are something separate which is the physical manifestation of shardic investiture
@23 Austin
Yes Spren are the manifestations of human concepts. Just like if the wind is blowing strongly playing with our hair, we liken it to little people being mischievous (windspren), or when a giant storm circles the globe continually, we liken it to a great entity (the stormfather). So why not too when seeing a bright circle in the sky, that provides light for plants to grow, and keeps you warm on cold days could it not be personified and get a spren? On earth there are many religions that have done so ::::cough Ra cough cough::::, just like on earth we have all sorts of names for the north, south, east and west winds.
@25 scath
Good point, but is the Stormfather causing the storm or is the storm itself? If he’s the storm itself, then it’s possible the sun could have a spren. But if the Stormfather is a spren that manifests as a huge storm…ugh, I just twisted my mind in knots lol. Now that I think of it, I think Syl mentioned starspren, right? I guess it comes down to the philosophical question raised in the books by different characters: do spren cause the phenomenon or are they the phenomenon itself?
@26 Austin
And if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound? lol. Yep, there were starspren mentioned, and I agree I think we are meant to wonder and not have answers, or at least not yet. Personally I think its there were natural occurrences, for instance the wind blowing an individual’s hair. Enough individuals experience it as playful and capricious, and begin to give the wind in their mind those aspects. Over time when enough people think of it that way, and it begins to seed into the culture, wind spren slowly start to become visible. They are then seen as “wind spirits” and this re-enforces the belief till it becomes ingrained in the culture’s understanding of the world, and becomes just a fact of the world. What is funny, is I am realizing as I typed that, how Brandon used expressions in our word to inspire his renditions of spren. How many times when someone pisses you off does a person say or think “god that person really gets my blood boiling!” How do anger spren look in the physical realm? Glory spren are glowing orbs ringing a person, how many times have we heard when someone accomplishes something great in our world, we remark on how they seem to be “glowing”. Would be hilarious if we had spren on our world, and they started mimicing emoticons lolol
@26 Austin
So I wrote a nice response and when I clicked to post it went poof, so I will try to retype or at least sum it up. I think Brandon did it on purpose. I think we are supposed to question which is it first, the spren or the natural phenomena. Yes there are starspren mentioned in the book. I do think it is the natural phenomena first, then people give it traits, and then those traits eventually become personified in a spren. But again, I think it is presented the way it is on purpose that we do not have an answer for it, or at least not yet. So till then it is fun to think about :)
edit: LOL and now it posts! Sorry for the double post!
This was one of the interludes I liked the most in this book.
Re the second sun, if memory serves me right, Brandon mentioned that the sun we see in Shadesmar is meant to represent the spiritual realm.
Re the origin of the aimians, it was my understanding that they are also immigrants along with the Shin amd the Iriali – inthe Axies the collector’s interlude when he is talking to the madman he mentions that he is a voidbringer – given what we find out later in Oathbringer, it does seem to imply non-Rosharan origin.
Re soulcasters – recently I had an idea amd had not seen it expressed anywhere – whar if the will that helps with soulcasting is not that of a spren, but if of an aimian? If the aimians could somehow connect to the device through the cognitive realm and are also specialists in various areas that might explain why the Rosharans have so much trouble replicating them, and correlates references to Aimua for getting the devices. If the aimiams withdrew from interactions with mankind after the recreance, then it figures that humans cannot create new soulcasters. (Or am I forgetting something and they can?)
I also really like how now we can read the epilogue of book 2 in a totally different light now that we know of hordelings!
That was a wonderfully creepy chapter! I really loved it. Most of the likely implications of intriguing mysteries hinted at have been already mentioned, but I have to wonder about the eventual fates of human Soulcaster device users who die due to the effects. Because aren’t they pretty much impregnated and suffused by investiture? And shouldn’t it result in them becoming Cognitive Shadows after death? I also can’t help but wonder about the confused smoke-spren through whose tent Our Heroes blunder through while in Celebrant – could she be Kaza, somehow?
All the huge gemstones lying around could be a great help to our Radiants, should the Aimians chose to support them and share.
We still have no idea why the larkin were associated with the old Radiants and appeared on their emblems. I mean, sure, investiture-draining could be very useful when dealing with the Fused, but it seems to be a neutral effect that both sides might have taken advantage of.
Concerning various types of Soulcasters, I remember that some rare ones that have all the 10 Essences were mentioned. Which, of course, begs the question whether _all_ of them could do so when new and those limited to less have gradually broken down or whether there was another reason.
Also, interesting how the Diagram managed to get hold of at least one during the just 5-6 years of it’s existence. And judging by that guy and Lin Davar, Soulcasters can be quite powerful even in inexperienced hands, though Kaza, of course, has more finesse.
Finally, I remember a WoB that stated that the hordelings of Dysian Aimians look like cremlings because they have been specifically bred to do so to blend in on Roschar and that elsewhere they could have been bred to mimicry other small creatures. Which suggests to me that Dysian Aimians may not be native
@29 Kooz
I agree it is likely that Aimians are not originally native Rosharians, but regarding the comment in the book that Axies is a voidbringer, I believe is more due to the people’s superstition and Axies thinks it is ludicrous enough to joke about rather than something to be taken seriously.
@30 Isilel
I do not believe becoming a cognitive shadow is something that can happen without direct interference. In other words, the soulcasters (the people), would linger in the cognitive realm before transitioning to the beyond longer than normal people, but would still go. They would need a large infusion of investiture upon death in order to become a cognitive shadow. Otherwise our main cast should have run into far more cognitive shadows of past radiants as it could be argued they would be far more infused than a human using a fabrial. Though Brendan Morgan on the other page, posits that the spren bond infuses the knight enough to create a cognitive shadow that is then sent to braize, which would dispell my response that we should run into old radiants if this is how the process works. Many mysteries, many thoughts, many theories. Love it! I say this all of course, prefaced on the fact that these are conclusions made based on the information we get here and there. None of what I say is conclusive, nor do I claim it is.
My own theory as to why soulcasters can cast a certain number of essences is I think it concerns the spren bonded to the fabrial. I theorize that surge mimicing fabrials, are bonded to spren that had bonded a knight radiant that was killed. Instead of losing sapience, they instead agreed to power the fabrial to continue to aid the war effort instead of waiting to bond a new knight, or perhaps traumatized from the loss, decided they were not ready to bond a new one. So the more limited soulcasters are either from lightweaver spren since lightweavers are not as proficient in transformation, or are from elscaller spren from earlier in the sworn oaths. For instance, if the fabrial can only do two or so essences, then the elsecaller spren used lost their knight when they were at the first or second oath. A fabrial that can do lets say 3 to 5 was the 3rd oath, 5 to 7 essences was 4th oath, and all 10 essences were a fabrial bonded to an elsecaller spren who has prior bonded a fully oathed knight radiant, allowing full range of proficiency. This is all conjecture but a part of me feels this fits.
@Scáth
I have nothing to add to your theorycraft except to say it doesn’t feel quite right to me Realmatically. While I do think higher spren power fabrials I’m not sure that they had to be previously bonded to a KR to do so. After all, an Oathgate is a fabrial and I don’t think those guardians were ever bonded to anyone other than Honor himself. Then again, I’m not so against it that I’d be upset if u were correct. As for what is actually going on, I think it’s a partnership in the same way as in the Nahel bond.
@32 EvilMonkey
Yeah I understand everything about my theory is pretty much on feeling because there is so little we know about how fabrials work that it is all conjecture. Regarding oathgates, if my theory is right, how it would apply is it would take a high oathed willshaper spren, and a high oathed elsecaller spren (which is theoretically the spren we do see in the cognitive realm with Shallan, though we do not know whether they are oathed or not) in order to teleport so many people so far. Also if my theory is true, then it would explain why radiant spren seem to have a distaste for modern fabrials (that use “simple” spren), while clearly they were ok with the surge producing fabrials as we see in the visions fully oathed knights using the surge fabrials. The surge fabrials would have been at the choice of the oathed spren to undertake and it would also mimic the bond, while modern day fabrials trick the spren and seemingly trap them.
@32 & 33
I have a feeling many fabrials are cousin rather then the higher spren including soulcasters due to the lack of protection. There is a protection granted by being bonded or using a higher spren that is not there with the fabrial version. It doesnt seem right that the same type of spren would offer the surge in a different way. Syl says the natural order is an agreement among friends. These friends are likely involved in the fabrials they manipulate. My guess is “modern” artifabrians don’t know what type of spren to attract nor how to attract them.
Warning: Cosmere spoilers.
Just having Investiture does not make one a Cognitive Shadow, or every Mistborn on Scadrial would become one, as opposed to just one, Kelsier, who literally had to sit in the Well of Ascension for a long time to avoid going Beyond. Other that weird circumstances like that, or the shades of the Forests of Hell, it would seem you need the direct intervention of a Shard to make a Cognitive Shadow (as with the Returned, Heralds, and Fused). Radiants are much weaker than Heralds and don’t show any sign of becoming Shadows, and a mere Ardent who can work a Soulcaster is another order of magnitude weaker than, say, Jasnah. She isn’t going anywhere but Beyond, IMO. And her assassin agrees with me.
@34 Gener
Mistborn Spoilers
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Brandon has gone on record in saying that what happens to Soulcasters (the people) from overusing soulcasters (the device) is savantism like in the book series mistborn. In Mistborn, savantism is when a misting or mistborn uses a certain power so much that it widens the cracks in their spirit web. There is no functional difference in origin between a normal misting, a normal mistborn, and a savant misting, and a savant mistborn. They all get the powers the same way, just the savants use them a whole lot more and get a whole lot more utility out of them. So I do not believe soulcasters (the people) becoming savants from overusing soulcasters (the device) would be from the result of a different spren, when that is not how it functions regarding mistings and mistborn. At least that is how I reason it. I could of course be wrong. Now having said that, I do agree fabrials like the shard shield made by Kharbranth (I think it was them that came up with it? My recollection on that is hazy), use “cousin” spren, like the ones that showed up when Kaladin used adhesion to stick the stone to the wall. Just like heating fabrials use fire spren, and so on. These fabrials allow further utility, but without producing the exact surge. So while using adhesion would create an unbreakable bond using an honorspren or bondsmith spren (good luck convincing the stormfather to chill in a fabrial lol), using the cousin spren just increases the shield’s strength and allows it to deflect shardblades. While using division would burn anything even rock by using a releaser spren or skybreaker spren, using the cousin spren just radiates warmth and increases the ambient temperature. I think the original surge producing fabrials did need to involve radiant/high spren. I feel this is supported by the spren we see at the Oathgate in the cognitive realm with Shallan.
@35 Carl
I agree
So basically the proposal is the more aware the spren, the more functional the fabrial. (The shields were called half shards i believe). But if that’s true then I believe more is required from the artifabrian to get a higher spren to power the device. What can be accomplished by force on a cousin spren to make a simple heating fabrial must be accomplished by persuasion of some stripe for a spren like Windle to power a fabrial like the one that heals Szeth. And for Urithiru or one of the Oathgates, there has to be a full on partnership if not more.
@37 EvilMonkey
Precisely. We know having a radiant die a natural death (in so far as getting killed vs breaking oaths), is traumatic to their bonded spren from what we know of Syl with her prior radiant (though no where near as traumatic nor permanent as if the oaths were broken). I think it is possible at the time of the knight radiant’s death, to have the spren voluntarily move their bond to a fabrial (of course there needs to be some special stuff with the fabrial for the bond to mimic a radiant bond), and that is how surge fabrials are formed. The reasons the spren would do this voluntarily are possibly:
1 it would allow them to retain the sapience and bond level they attained with their radiant prior to the radiant’s demise
2 perhaps hurt/sorrow over the loss of their radiant, they do not desire to bond a new radiant but at the same time do not want to lose the sapience and memories of their deceased radiant
3 perhaps due to great number of radiant losses during a decisive battle, in an effort to supplement their number in the short term, these fabrials are made from the deceased radiant’s spren.
So it would require the high spren to voluntarily bond the surge fabrial, while the modern day fabrials trick, trap, and then imprison the “less aware” spren. That could potentially explain the high spren’s distaste for the modern day fabrials, but being seemingly completely fine with the surge producing fabrials (as we see in the visions from Dalinar).
A way for the fallen to continue the fight huh? Plausible maybe.
@39 EvilMonkey
Total crackpot theory on my part with nothing in the book nor WoB to back it up, but it feels right to me. I respect that it does not feel right to you and totally get that. I readily admit I am reaching on many parts of it.
edit: Hell all it would take is in book 4, one spren to mention at a radiant dying the spren immediately…….whoa I just had a thought! We do see Elhokar’s spren hang around in the physical realm even after Elhokar shuffled the mortal coil! So at the very least, we have a window of opportunity for what I theorize. That in no way proves any of the rest of my theory, but it does show that after the radiant dies, the spren don’t just go poof back to the cognitive realm immediately! This is why I love talking about these things. Makes my brain trigger other thoughts.
@39 EvilMonkey
Just read a WoB that could support my theory, or discount it. I am open to either interpretation. Basically Brandon confirmed that a spren can be transferred to another person. This could help my theory by showing the spren bond could be moved to the fabrial potentially as long as it mimics the bond. This however could discount my theory because why bond the spren to a fabrial, if you could just as easily attach it to another person? Unless the people available potentially wouldn’t be ideal to bond that specific spren. In which case having the spren bond the fabrial instead would allow you to still have access to a “radiant” but give you increased utility. It could again be up to the spren to choose. Either pick someone among the people we have, or bond a fabrial, or chose to return to the cognitive. If the spren still wants to help to honor their dead radiant, but among its choices of humans do not fit, or it does not want to bond a new human, it could elect to bond the fabrial. I have typed the WoB below
Questioner
What’s the relationship between spren and seons?
Brandon
They are the same thing from different magics.
Questioner
Okay, exact same thing from different magics?
Brandon
“Exact”, might be a little too strict, but yeah
Questioner
So a seon can be transferred to another person, right?
Brandon
Yes
Questioner
Can a spren?
Brandon
Yes
Scath @31:
I don’t think that the Radiants are actually as strongly suffused with Investiture as the users of Soulcasters, because for them, their spren filter it all through themselves and shield the soulcasting Radiant from being transformed. While transformation of Soulcaster device-users seemingly happens on the physical plain – their cognitive and spiritual aspects are also affected. The materials of their physcal bodies are being replaced by the materials that they transform things into – and isn’t it similar to cognitive shadows – that their “souls” get replaced or possibly copied by the investiture? IMHO, this makes much more likely that Soulcasters who had been transformed to the extreme become cognitive shadows, whereas for Radiants, most of the investiture never touched them during their lives, but was handled by their spren, who separate themselves from the knight’s soul at death.
Nor is it necessarily set in stone that one can only become a cognitive shadow if a Shard takes a purposeful action – after all, the shades of Threnody are kind of cognitive shadows, too.
And, of course we saw both Timbre and Elhokar’s spren hanging around in physcial after their humans died, so there is a window of opportunity, but I got a strong impression from Kasa’s PoV that whatever power she dealt with when soulcasting resides in the Cognitive realm – which is why she herself was eventually pulled in there more and more.
@42 Isilel
Mistborn Spoilers
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Thing is, then why did Kelsier have to be made into a cognitive shadow? Brandon has confirmed that misting and mistborn savantism is the same as soulcaster savantism. Brandon has confirmed Kelsier was a steel and iron savant which is why he was able to push and pull on different parts of metal objects instead of only their center of mass. Yet we see in secret history, despite him being a savant, like a soulcaster would be, he is still pulled towards the beyond, and it is only due to Preservation’s interference that Kelsier became a cognitive shadow. So I think that shows that you would not become a cognitive shadow just from the function of using a soulcaster (the fabrial) enough to change your physical make up. I do have more to say on your post, but I gotta run at the moment. Be back!
edit: So with savants, nothing is being “replaced”. In order to use powers, you need cracks in your spirit web. The investiture fills those cracks. Using powers heavily (mistborn, misting, soulcasters) widens those cracks. Cognitive shadows conversely are suffused with so much investiture they become like petrified wood, where the investiture becomes an imprint of the “soul”. Petrified wood is no longer actually the wood, but the minerals solidified taking its place. The wood is actually replaced by the rock. So too with cognitive shadows. The investiture takes the place of the person’s “soul”. Now spren do provide some insulation for their radiants as confirmed by Sanderson to prevent the more negative effects of savantism that we find with the soulcasting fabrials, but from what we have seen, it looks like the amount of investiture needed to create a cognitive shadow is far greater than what is produced from using a soulcaster (fabrial) a whole lot.
As to the shades on Threnody, Nazh did say there was a ritual to create a shade the real way. The implication is the shades on Threnody that we see are not fully cognizant cognitive shadows that they could be. To clarify, I never said you had to have a shard involved to get a cognitive shadow. What I am saying is the amount of investiture suffused into an individual to create a cognitive shadow is too high for it to happen naturally from being a savant. Regardless the magic system.
What you said could be implied, though all Kasa said was that the entity associated with the soulcaster assisted the transformation. On a separate occasion she mentioned how she has begun seeing into the cognitive realm, and has seen individuals there, but she does not say she saw the entity connected to the fabrial. She just felt its presence. So that could swing either way.
Ishar built the KR and put the Oath progression in place to keep humanity from playing with the forces of creation without a check. Fabrials as far as we know do not have those checks. There are consequences sure. But if someone were willing to suicide in order to, for instance, turn Kholinar to smoke, just give them a powerful enough Soulcaster and that’s that. For a higher spren to lend surges to Fabrials there has to be more steps than just some random Radiant dying and passing their spren to some shady character with a ghost catcher.
Because if it’s that easy then why would anyone subject themselves to the checks a Nahel bond imposes? I mean, Kaladin is probably the poster boy for Windrunners, he’s everything a Windrunner is supposed to be. His Oaths chafe at even him from time to time. And one more thing. The Recreance killed thousands of Spren presumably. Why wouldn’t at least a few of them if not most of them opt to become Fabrials instead? If the Radiants were worried about Surges destroying everything then hide and stockpile the fabrials against future need.
@44 EvilMonkey
Welllllll it could be stated that since Honorblades were directly connected to Honor, and was directly fueled by the shard, without any checks or balances, then would you say it was already that easy? The elsecaller and lightweaver blades in the hands of….actually anyone…. could transform whole cities (when Honor was alive). Many theorize the lightweavers are the cause for the shattered plains. So that is already a thing
Second, fabrial soulcasters are not strong enough to soulcast a whole city. As we see with the ardents, to make a large wind break, they needed multiple soulcasters to work in concert. Now as I said, the higher oathed the spren was, the more powerful the soulcaster would be, but there are still limitations. For instance, a radiant can pour as much stormlight as they possess into their surge (compounding gravity with kaladin, or super accelerated healing with renarin). Soulcasters do not seem to have that capability. Also soulcasters (fabrial) rely on the correct lodestone while radiants do not (as per WoB). So full oathed fabrial or not, you would not be turning cities into smoke.
Third, well one reason to subject yourself to the oaths rather than a fabrial is you do not want to get turned into a stone/vine/meat/blood/oil/etc person? Like all of Brandon’s magic systems, fabrials too have checks and balances. Ones that will be further delved into because Brandon has said Roshar is well on its way to being magitech. So people will very well end up going the route of fabrials over radiants in the future, much like how the Mistborn series is evolving.
So i say all that to say I do not think because anyone can use a fabrial, it precludes my theory. There is nothing concrete to say my theory is true, but I think it still stands in that gray area so far. At least till more info comes out.
edit: missed responding to your final point. I am of the inclination that the spren didn’t get a choice in the matter nor the time to have a problem with the Recreance as well as that there is more going on as to why the Radiants had to betray the oaths. It was just done. No going back. So I personally feel the spren didn’t have the chance to go “oh wait, you are horribly going to mutilate me, please just give me to a fabrial instead!” or the radiants “well i could horribly destroy my spren, or I could kill myself and let them hop into a fabrial instead”. I think there was something that required the radiants to betray their spren. Any other action would not have accomplished what they were trying to accomplish. But that is just my theory.
Well Honorblades and the Heralds are special cases. For one, as destructive as the Honorblades can be, there are only 10 of them. Wielded by people so trusted by Honor that he wouldn’t even let them die, instead recycling them over and over again. Contrast that to Soulcasters, much more plentiful, wielded by people of uncertain loyalty. Put 100 of them in a room and if they each have a Surge as powerful as a 2 Oath Radiant, they could wreck a city in short order depending on the Surge. Fabrials multiply the number of people with power without the need of a background check. And that’s not even counting the Fabrials that only need to be activated. Those take away the worry that prolonged usage turns one into an essence. Just fire and forget. Remember, 9 of the10 Heralds were born on Ashyn, where uncontrolled Surgebinding has made the planetary surface into a worldwide ocean of fire. Something tells me that they’re going to do anything to not repeat those mistakes.
Not crappin on your theory. It’s plausible given what we know. I just think it’s gonna be harder than that. More steps needed, and we don’t know enough yet.
It seems the growth progression of “some sort of minor cremling”, to greatshell to island great shell might be like the sea turtle.
They start as an egg buried and left on a beach to hatch on their own and struggle to reach the sea. Once in the water they swim off (with a massive loss of life along the way) to grow for 10 years, thousands of miles away. Then the females return to the beach where they were born and lay the eggs.
That would mean they could be crossing all over Roshar at different life stages. They could shed shells and change shape or make cacoons and metamorph, all sorts of possibilites to explain how people who don’t travel the world wold only know one particular form of an animal.
Hmm … if cremlings are embryonic Greatshells, they would have tiny (microscopic?) gemhearts. Now I want to see Navani/Shallan/Jasnah (as a group) figure that out (they have the right combination of abilities) and start extracting “gemgrit” from cremlings to make new types of fabrial.
I thought I was kidding, but now that I typed it, that would actually be really cool.
@46 EvilMonkey
True, however there is still built into them that little thing where anybody can use them. Also via WoB, a Shard cannot just stop you from using its magic system. So it is not like if a “bad” person got their hands on the honorblades, that Honor (assuming he was alive), could have done anything about it. Honor couldn’t prevent the Honorblades from being fueled directly by him, regardless how they were used. Considering we have WoB that confirm the blades were fueled by Honor directly, instead of stormlight originally, then just imagine honorblades used in the same way a certain girl in the mistborn series did at a certain point. Hopefully you get my reference. If not I will follow up with a post for mistborn spoilers. But suffice it to say, an elsecaller honorblade used when Honor was alive could easily transport an army anywhere on Roshar, and turn an entire country, people and all, to smoke. So the destructive level without checks and balances are definitely there, and definitely available.
I think you are overestimating the strength of soulcaster fabrials, and even soulcasting from a radiant his or herself. Jasnah was able to soulcast the chunk of wall because of all the stormlight and because the realms were closer making it easier. If you posit 100 soulcasters (the fabrial) would equal 1 radiant, and 1 radiant powered up more than usual was just able to fix the huge rent in the wall, then I still do not think you are going to get the level of abuse you are thinking of.
Next, savantism is not only prolonged use. It is how “greatly” it is used. Another mistborn reference, but lets just say a certain individual not only had his metal burning constantly, but he was flaring it. So the way I see it, singularly a soulcasting ardent could not do the windbreak, period. Collectively, they were able to accomplish the windbreak, but it would still take its toll. Then add to the fact that savantism cannot be healed as per WoB it becomes part of your spiritweb and your “self” does not see it as damage. So its going to catch up to you no matter what.
We do not fully know what happened on Ashyn, why it happened, and by what function it occurred. I also think again, Honorblades are prime examples of them not doing anything to not repeat those mistakes lol. If unrestricted use of the surges was the sole reason for the planet going blewy, then the honorblades should be off the table period. Yet they did.
Lol, don’t worry. I do not feel you are crapping on my theory. I want to talk about it like this. I want you to think of something that utterly disproves it. Because that way I learn something new. Or in the process, I think of new things to add to the theory or support it. Personally I am fully enjoying our discussion, so please do not feel because I respond to your assertions in kind, that I am being defensive or combative. I look at this as a means to work through the theory, its faults, and test if it can stand. Since this one is still pretty loose, it is hard to really argue in either direction since 90 percent of it is conjecture. The more info we get, the more that can be locked down, the better off I think we will all be.
Finally, I do agree there needs to be something more than just the spren agreeing to be a fabrial. I just do not think it has to be as intensive as you posit. Looking forward to your responses!
@47 goddessimho
Excellent points!
@48 Carl
So it looks like gemhearts are relatively tied to the size of the creature, as in the smaller it is, the less likely it is to have a gemheart, but it also looks like that is not a hard and fast rule. So interesting idea! I have included the WoB below
Questioner
Is it only greatshells that have gemhearts, or do all crustaceans on Roshar have some sort of gem inside? And if it is only greatshells then are their unique decayspren related to this fact?
Brandon
They’re not only greatshells, but not every crustacean has a gemheart, at least not of the style that would be of any relevance to you. Some have the same sort of chemistry going on in their body, they’re just too small to have it coalesce into a gemheart. And the gemheart is related to how – particularly the greatshells, can grow to get so big.
True a Shard cannot stop someone from using a magic they fuel once they get it. But they do have some volition as to the power they choose to grant. Honorblades are only part of the gift Honor gave to the Heralds, and probably the least important one. Honor fed the Heralds themselves the direct connection, not the Honorblades. The Heralds then used those Honorblades to give them Surges. Honor was not feeding power to the blades directly, he put them in the hands of his trusted 10 and only they can wield them to their full capacity. A regular dude with the Elsecaller or Lightweaver blade could do a lot of damage, hell, any one of those blades is a danger. But unless they have the Thaylen Gem Reserve at their disposal they could not do the damage any 2 Oath Radiant could not do alone. Even with that, they can be beaten easily (by other Surgebinders at least) because they can’t use their Stormlight as effeciently as a Radiant. Heralds were capable of planet busting destruction but they could do things alone that it would take Radiants working in concert to accomplish. And just try to take an Honorblade from a Herald who isn’t inclined to give it up.
Next, I disagree on the ratio. I think its closer to 5:1 or 10:1 Fabrial to Radiant, depending on Radiant level. But even were it 100:1, fabrials can more easily be mass produced than Radiants. Given the restrictions Ishar placed on Radiants, why would he then allow a back door method to obtain Surges without imposing a commiserate price? A gun is a gun. Some do more damage than others but they all are destructive, they can all kill. He had the power of Ancient Bondsmiths. He could bind Gods. It doesn’t make sense to propose gun control on one thing and not regulate a bunch of bomblets too.
Last, what about the fabrials one only need activate? The fire and forget kind? Prolonged usage of spanreeds don’t turn a person into an essense. There are more powerful fabrials that mimic surges that one doesn’t have to weild.
I imagine that the line separating fabrials that will alter your spirit web over time and one that won’t is whether their action is guided directly by the mind ofv the user. Heat fabrials just make heat. Spanreeds just communicate motion. The transformation fabrials need to be directed as far as shape and material so the user is connecting to it while it’s doing its thing.
@50 EvilMonkey
I am sorry but WoB directly contradict that. I will post them if you like, but as per multiple WoB, the honorblades were fueled directly by Honor. The reason joe schmo do not currently have the same level of power if they were to pick up an honorblade is two fold. First, perception. Just like how Szeth thinks he needs 10 heartbeats to summon an honorblade results in him needing to take 10 heartbeats to summon it. Just like how Shallan convinced herself she needed 10 heartbeats to summon Pattern till she admitted what he was. So too with Honorblades. If your perception is they only work like a shardblade, it will only work like a shardblade. Brandon has said on numerous occasions, if the person knew what they were doing, they could get a lot more out of the honorblade than what we have seen. Second, the honorblades were fueled directly by honor when he was alive. Brandon has confirmed when honor was killed, that changed. So again, when everyone first came to Roshar, and the honorblades were first a thing, anyone could pick them up and lay waste to the planet. No need of spren. No need of stormlight. No need of oaths. Anyone.
Well I used the ratio you yourself offered, but the idea still stands. You said multiple fabrials to equal one radiant. If one radiant can barely soulcast the rent in the wall (and that was when she was “supercharged), then whatever ratio of fabrials you deem to equal radiants would still have as much, if not more trouble because they are more limited than radiants. That is also a WoB I will be happy to type of if you want (that fabrials are more limited than radiants).
The comment about Ishar came from the histories. We still do not know the function of Ishar, why he above all else could enforce it upon every radiant, and how valid the quote is. I do not think it is a case of Ishar allowing it or not. It is a function. It can happen. Are we sure Ishar had a power to “create” these oaths and force it on the radiants? We have no idea how the oaths came to be. And do we know that if Ishar was able to create these oaths and place it upon the radiants, whether he could do the same to fabrials? We do not know what binding “Gods” means in the cosmere yet. There are a whole lot of questions all around.
The fabrials you mentioned, as well as soursavior, seem to be fabrials made from the “cousin spren” and not ones associated with the knights radiant. That does make an excellent question though. Does all fabrials that mimic surges widen the cracks in the souls? If you use a regrowth fabrial enough to heal too many people, what happens to you? Ooooooo that’s an awesome thought. What does a regrowth savant look like?
@51 soursavior
I replied to yours above with EvilMonkey
Awesome conversation people! :)
Ok, see? This is why I love these kind of conversations! I just had another thought because of it! So if we are to believe unrestrained use of surges destroyed Ashyn, and the later radiants finding out about it is what caused the Recreance directly, then why:
1. were the honorblades made and considered acceptable when they are unrestrained use of the surges on a global scale
2. why did people bond spren and begin using the surges unrestrained at all considering the explodiness of their planet would have been a very recent occurance (as brought up in a discussion with Wetlandernw, that if the Heralds came over to Roshar from Ashyn, but the Fused came later that they were in a response to, which means the heralds were still alive during all of it, then the world war had to come pretty quickly, at the very least in less than a generation.
3. why would the oaths be enough of a restraint directly after the planet going explodie, but not be hundreds or thousands of years later? Is honor’s death the sole reason this concept suddenly changed? Or more?
summation in a humorous format:
1. you blew up your planet with nukes. come to my planet and live peacefully
2. you didn’t live peacefully, and now are at war with the natives who want to kill you
3. here are those nukes you used to blow up your planet, I am sure you will use them responsibility and morally this time around
4. the nukes these 10 people use are ok, but the nukes everyone else uses are unrestrained and dangerous. We need to restrict them
5. OMG, the nukes we have that are restrained by oaths could blow up our planet! Let us just leave the unrestrained nukes laying around for anyone to pick up, while we horribly kill and mutilate our best friends because we could blow up the planet even though our oaths would prevent that potentially.
(side note, these comments are devoid and unconnected to the real world and politics. Personally I believe in gun regulation. I only say this because EvilMonkey has brought that up twice.)
Well if there are multiple WOB’s that say a thing, I’ll concede the point even if I think it’s stupid. Still, two points. One, when Heralds were still participants in the Oathpact there wasn’t a human or even a group of humans alive that could take their blades from them and because of the massive power of the artifacts I doubt any of them are just handing out their blade to anyone. So even if the blade had no limits and had a direct connection, the limiting factor was the wielders themselves. Two, Those blades have been tucked away in Shinovar for 4500 years. If they have yet to discover the OP nature of the Honorblades I doubt they’ll ever know. And unless a Herald tells them they aren’t likely to ever know.
Next, I think you are underestimating the power of Surgebinding regardless of method. Szeth with an Honorblade was roughly equivalent to a Radiant on his 3rd Oath (Kaladin using the same Surges defeated him after swearing Oath 3). Szeth with an Honorblade ended several world governments, some of which had Shardbearers with not limited combat experience. When Kaladin reaches the 5th Ideal he would easily be able to duplicate the feat if no Surgebinders oppose him. He won’t try because of Syl and checks on his power. Even a fraction of that type of power is absolutely terrifying. Lets say, to quantify an unquantifiable aspect from the info we have, that a higher spren powered fabrial is about half of what a squire could accomplish with a borrowed Surge. You would need say 20 or 30 of them to equal the power of a Full 5 Ideal Radiant. 20 to 30 Soulcasters, people that can turn you into crystal with a touch all over a battlefield is scary as hell. Even if all they have the power to do is change one body part to smoke instead of the whole guy, you’re out the fight if you lose a leg or a piece of your face. And the spread means no single point of failure. And that doesn’t even factor in what a more dangerous Surge, even weakened, could do. Division? Tension? A regular Shardbearer with a dead blade and plate is nearly an army unto themselves in battle. An unopposed KR is worth 10 times that guy. They are bowel-loosening even with Oaths as a check. Without them? Ashyn.
Honor gifted 10 people with blades of incredible power and no check on usage. I still maintain that even with that he only gave out 10 of those unchecked weapons, and to people he made immortal so as not to spread them around. What he didn’t do was give out a bunch of devices that did the same thing the Honorblades do, grant Surges without check. The spren made KR with checks to Surges. Whether Ishar instigated those checks or not, the KR have those checks. Fabrials do not as far as we know. So to me, it still has to be one of two things. One, there are checks, at least other than the I turn to an essense thing. If using a Soulcaster 20 times turns you to stone, you can do a lot of damage those 19 other times. We just don’t know them. Two, there are no checks on the devices but there are on the user. Anyone can use a cousin spren fabrial like anyone can put on dead spren armor or wield a dead spren blade. Using a live Sprenblade takes more, so should a higher spren fabrial require more of its user.
We really need an official timeline of events. None of this makes sense otherwise. I mean, what is it about Odium that made Honor and Culti invite humans from Ashyn to Roshar? What possessed the spren to grant men the surges that already apocalyped a nearby planet? Why are the Fused so damn hellbent on revenge that they took Immortality to redress a wrong? Don’t they know Odium well enough by now to realise he plans to make all their efforts to reclaim Roshar mean nothing? He’s not just going to kill Culti and leave like on Sel, he’s gonna scour the planetary system of all life before moving on when he wins.
@54 EvilMonkey
I would post them all in one go, but it is either I type it all (which takes awhile and drains my hands), or I post the links, which results in the post hanging in limbo till it gets approved because it could potentially be spam which is really annoying. So go to the 17th shard, select “Arcanum”, in the upper right is a search option. Write honorblade in it. This is a brief summation of what they say. Honorblades are pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them which provided them direct access to his essence. This was before Honor died. Honorblades are less efficient with stormlight because they are the original prototype and since they were fed directly by Honor, they didn’t need to conserve power. Honorblades also have other advantages over sprenblades that we have not seen yet. But honorblades are also limited (like fabrials) when compared to sprenblades due to their “mechnical” (his words) nature. Jasnah pretended to need gemstones and the correct gemstones to soulcast. Real radiants do not need specific gemstones to soulcast, and can use their own stormlight to do so, without gemstones.
Well keep in mind at the end of the day, the heralds are people. They have all our failings, and can make mistakes like anyone else. Just because someone may (consider that the heralds needed that much power to fight something as powerful as them) not have the power to take the blade from them, does not mean they are infallible and the blade could never potentially fall into another person’s hands. Also the heralds are among the people from the explody planet. You are literally giving right back to the people who abused them, the same weapons they had abused. Also there is a WoB that the honorblades were made to “mimic” something else, or to copy more specifically what the WoB said someone had knowledge of some things that were done before and they used that to create the honorblades.
To respond to your second point, in order to use the surges while wielding the honorblade, you have to know you would gain access to the surges if you wield the honorblade. If the shin were able to figure that out, one would imagine they could eventually figure out more, though in the end that point is mute, because as I said the WoB said the honorblades no longer draw directly on Honor since his death. Why that is I have no idea. But it is so. Once Honor is restored, or the issue resolved, the honorblades go back to their insane OPness.
Oh believe me, I know how powerful surgebinding is. I love Sanderson’s works because of how he employs his magic systems. That even the weakest ability can find a way to be powerful in the right circumstances. However, you are comparing Szeth, who went against people with no powers, with a time period where the radiants were fighting beings that outclassed them. Beings that so outclassed them, that heralds with unlimited surges, and an army with access to those same surges just barely survived each desolation, with humanity getting sent back several technological eras. If you had powers and no one else did, then yes you are overpowered and dangerous. Now if everyone had powers, and you decided to go blasting around, but other people could heal from those blasts, or deflect those blasts, things change rather dramatically. Your OPness suddenly goes down.
Next I think you give the oaths more credit than they deserve. The oaths are very subjective. Syl keeps Kaladin in line based on how Kaladin himself interprets the oaths. If Kaladin genuinely thought he was protect people by assassinating those leaders, Syl would allow it. Prime example being the parshendi. Kaladin was completely and unequivocally allowed to slaughter the parshendi wholesale, no problem. It wasn’t till Kaladin began to question and see the parshendi as people with the right to be protected themselves that issues started to enter the mix. Keep in mind, all the radiants have been part of a world war for quite some time. If killing someone who didn’t deserve to die simply because they are on the other side of the battle was a problem for a radiant, then there would either be no war, or not radiants to fight it. That is the very discussion Dalinar, Jasnah, and Kaladin have.
Humans have innate investiture and resist getting changed. Jasnah (the radiant) ran through all the stormlight she had on her to transform three men. The fabrial is more limited than this. They would run out of stormlight, or crack the gems, or turn themselves into the essence long before they could reach the numbers you are positing. I think soulcasting is insanely cool, but the fact of the matter, by Jasnah’s own details at the end of the book, is soulcasting is hard, expensive (in stormlight), and requires a lot of training. Soulcasting air to rock is harder than rock to air. Imagine soulcasting a person?
Again you are taking these powers out of the context they were in. You say a shardbearer is an army unto himself. Yet when a mere taste of what the radiants used to fight showed up, it almost became obsolete (the thaylan shardbearer got his ass handed to him against the thunderclast. lets be honest, he just delayed it till Renarin took it out). The vision where Dalinar saw the regrowth surge fabrial was when people were getting attacked by midnight essences and had no means of first aid near by. The windrunners had a whole planet to try to cover. they couldn’t waste extra stormlight to always carry around an edgedancer or truthwatcher. That fabrial saved lives. And unlike guns (not sure if I should remove that part, because I have been doing my best to avoid going political), soulcasters can produce food, fortifications, eliminate waste, and so on. Just because the function in your view is too easy to produce, does not mean the fabrials could not be regulated and kept an eye on. We haven’t seen any other fabrials from that age yet, so they had to have gone somewhere.
I am not advocating banning the use of fabrial tech, far from it. They are damn useful, especially when an enemy has comparable capabilities and unlimited lives. Furthermore, I agree that the Ideals aren’t everything. But they’re not nothing either. I believe the original scope of the argument was the creation and powering of advanced fabrial tech by means of the usage of Nahel level spren. My argument focused not on the possibility of said action but on its implementation. That’s the likely sticking point.
Based on the information at hand I believe that there has to be another secret, but maybe I’m wrong and Honor and the spren were trusting enough to hand over a powerful tool to humanity without placing some sort of restrictions on it. But if that’s the case, why place restrictions on one set of powers and not ones that act the same? Fabrials are weaker and less capable than the Nahel bond but as you pointed out, strength and/or weakness is relative. A Soulcaster with a weak effect is better than someone unaugmented. To flip the argument, sure people are dying and perhaps there’s a weapon shortage, people need food and healing. If all this is true, why put restrictions on those most capable of helping the cause? My answer is because these powers are dangerous regardless of the level. And much like one should not have a gun without a permit or is allowed to practice medicine without a medical degree, one should not Surgebind without some sort of Restrictions. Honor did give out unrestricted Surgebinding in the form of Honorblades. Look how that turned out?
#57, @EvilMonkey:
That’s a reference, right? One Brandon Sanderson is on record saying, “There is always another secret.”
It protected Roshar from Odium for millennia?
It protected Roshar for a number of Desolations. Then the Heralds left the Oathpact. Then the Shin invasions. The Assassin in White. Vyre.
@57 EvilMonkey
I think you are right in that we are getting a bit off topic. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that you disagree/dislike (whichever you feel fits better to describe) with the theory because you feel it would mean the function of creating fabrials is too “easy”, which then by extension means it will be abused, and since Ishar put limits on surgebinders, then it would not make sense that he would allow fabrials because they are so easily made. Conversely my point is just because something is theoretically “easily made”, does not prevent it from being “regulated”. That first you require a dead radiant (which theoretically an immoral person could kill them to start this process so that is no real barrier), then you need the necessary materials that would mimic the bond, and then you would need the permission of the spren (who if you killed the radiant, it is likely you would get a no on that), for the spren to voluntarily bond the fabrial. So now you have a fabrial. A fabrial being used by other knights radiant that already have to obey oaths. A fabrial that is weak compared to a radiant, so if abuse is done, said knights can step in and apprehend the individual (it would be insanely difficult for a radiant to directly soulcast another radiant). So I am not seeing the issue in enforcement here.
Now on to implementation. What I picture happening is what happened in the vision. Windrunners are air dropping in perhaps some Releasers to get a beach head going, or going to a local hot spot to protect innocents. The windrunners or releasers can use to the regrowth fabrial to heal any injured. If said location is of strategic importance, they could use the soulcaster to set up some basic fortifications, or food to supply the locals till further reinforcements arrive. Or another example, lets say an elsecaller/willshaper teleports in a small force to hold off an enemy’s scouting force. The elscaller/willshaper can teleport away to alert a near by fortified position to send help, while the stonewards hold the line during a tactical retreat. They do not have a regrowth fabrial on them, and no time to treat the injured, so the stonewards make large thin slabs of rock. They move the wounded onto those rocks, and use gravitation to turn them into jury rigged wagons. They are then able to move hundreds easily during their tactical retreat while reinforcements are inbound. I do not think it is a stretch to imagine the radiants did not expect the recreance to happen. They did not expect shardblades, plate, and soulcasters to just fall into anyone’s hands. Just like I am sure Honor did not expect to die the way he did, resulting in a lack of his guidance. It has been confirmed he was not as good at future sight as the others.
To go back to the original issue, I get that may be a reason why the theory does not sit well with you, and I totally respect that and I am glad you brought that forward because it has given me so much to think about but I do not feel that argument would disprove the possibility of the theory. At the end of the day the Shardholders are not “god” in the omnicient, omnipotent sense. They to me, are more like greek and roman gods. They are beings, with all our faults and failings, just with a whole bunch of power. Let us go further back. One theory is that Adonalsium was doing something bad, so that is why they shattered them. Well if Adonalsium was doing something bad, why not build in limitations when picking up the shards to prevent the same thing from happening again? I do not know. We do not know the whole story. There may be a perfectly good reason. But regardless whether the reason is good or not (and someone just plain and simple screwed up), it doesn’t change that the process could still be the process. A serial killer with the right knowledge of hemalurgy could become a fullborn to rival radiants and maybe even heralds. Where are the checks and balances there? The medallions are unforeseen offshoots of that. Anyone can use them once they are fully figured out. Where are the checks and balances there? That is going to be something the culture and society is going to need to figure out and I am very excited to read about! Laws are ever evolving just like people are. Used to be the biggest danger you had was someone sticking a sharp piece of metal in you. Now we have to worry about dirty bombs that could take out whole cities. Just because something can be abused at a later date, does not mean the process doesn’t exist. We still have to deal with it. And again I say all this to remind that there still has to be a step that the fabrial somehow mimics the radiant bond. What and how that step could be, I have no clue.
@58 Carl
Lol, yes there is. And I love finding out every single one! :)
@59 EvilMonkey
Yep, because at the end of the day, the Heralds are still human. They still make mistakes. Just like the Vessels.
Ya know, it seems obvious in retrospect but I did not make the connection although I myself brought up something similar. I’m speaking of the concept of an access check. You propose that as the Heralds served as a check on Honorblade usage, the Radiants themselves serve as check on ancient fabrial tech, thereby removing the need for an additional keyed device. I could probably get behind that. I think my blindspot has to do with the current usage of Fabrials. See, the Fabrials are the purview of the Vorin church, although several secret societies on Roshar are likely to be stockpiling a few of the devices as well. The Skybreakers have them (Nale healing Szeth) and Ghostbloods too (Luesh and his device loaned to Lin Davar). As Vorinism seems at least half way into Odium’s pocket I wouldn’t trust them with a wet paper bag, much less a device that could potentially cause so much damage. The Ghostblood’s motives are unknown but their methods suggest that they are up to no good. The Skybreakers will be an Order fighting against themselves shortly, and the side working indirectly for Odium has all the knowledge of the ancients at their beck and call. Given that environment, it is natural to be leary of unkeyed devices of such destructive power. Then again, true spren are coming back regardless. And if your method is how this shebang really works then the genie comes out the bottle, Pandora’s box is opened, and the world changes just in time for the Last Desolation. Hopefully the one who figures out how to make Fabrials of ancient strength are on team Honor; at this point in the story they need every advantage they can get.
As to your other point, I don’t know why other magic systems seem not to have this particular check, but I was speaking of Roshar only. On Roshar, a check was implimented, by people who knew firsthand the destructive power of the forces they worked with as well as intimate knowledge of how to manipulate those forces. It led me to question why one thing and not the other? It cannot be oversight in my mind. Leaving them unkeyed had to be either deliberate or unavoidable. Something that would make your theory work for me, maybe holding the spren that power the ancient fabrials to Oaths is impossible, and so as a result are less able to come fully into the Physical Realm. The surges they can provide are weaker as a result. The Oathgate fabrials for example are insanely powerful, but their spren cannot breach the Physical Realm at all. Presumably an Elscaller fabrial would be less capable than if Jasnah herself were doing the transporting but their spren would at least be partially present in the PR, not completely present like Ivory as Shardblade.
Lastly, just what the hell happened at the Recreance? If your theory is correct then the Fabrial guys weren’t left braindead because they had no Oath to bind them. So did they just get disgusted at the humans for their duplicity and withdrew their power? Were they Honor Locked like the Oathgate in Kholinar? Did the Amians steal them away from Urithiru using their own Oathgate and lock the door behind them? Million broam question.
@61 EvilMonkey
No worries. I think you are totally right. That if my theory is right, fabrial tech becomes a real wild card in this latest iteration of the war. If that is the case, then I think that is on purpose. Just like everything you listed I feel is on purpose (Skybreakers switching sides, Ghostbloods chilling in the middle, Venli bonding a radiant spren). It is meant to shake up the “natural” order. Keep us guessing which way it all is going to go. Makes me excited to think of all the possible twists that can happen as result!
Well regarding other magic systems, is because of how the people get them and how the shards interact with the planet. So in the mistborn series you are either born a mistborn/feruchemist, or you use hemalurgy to steal it. The shards seem to give the magic a bit of a “flavor” (none of this terminology is accurate and a good chunk of this is just prevailing theories, so take with a grain of salt). So for instance hemalurgy with ruin, there is a natural power loss because ruin is all about entropy. No matter what you do, the power you steal will never be as strong as it was when first in the person. People theorize Roshar is all about bonds. It is not till later that those bonds artificially became associated with morals/ethics. So it seems to me Roshar in this case became more the exception than the rule.
I think the reason the oathgates are so powerful is because it includes two highly oathed spren. One willshaper and one elsecaller. That and the point of entry and exit is fixed. So although you can transport a whole lotta people, you can only go from point A to point B, while a willshaper or elsecaller could theoretically go anywhere in between.
So I think this is an excellent point that could disprove my theory. My first answer is to instinctively say, “well once they are bonded to the fabrial, they cannot leave on their own”. But first, that is pure conjecture on my part, basically assuming information to self validate, and second, why wouldn’t there be at least one person in the know, willing to release them and ask whats up? I lean towards your thought regarding the Aimians, which would explain why they guard the island so much…….ack had another thought! That might be your means of checks and balances regarding soulcasters! We have seen that an aimian can take on two radiants (admittedly lower oathed ones) and come out not so worse for wear. Kaza says historically soulcasters came from Aimia, and that they knew the most about them. What if the Aimians were the way to make sure the fabrials weren’t abused prior to the recreance? The hordlings can spy to make sure everything is followed. They are strong enough to take on a radiant, so should be able to take on a fabrial user. Because they are made of so many individual hordlings, it might be difficult to soulcast them all before they stop you. And they are the gate keepers in access to them to begin with. Hmmmm, that would be very interesting/cool if right.
Really enjoying this convo. Thanks!
edit: makes me wonder if Aimians were responsible for all fabrials, including regrowth and so on. Kaza wouldn’t know about the others, because the only one we have really seen around in “modern day” are the soulcaster fabrials.
edit2: had another thought. What if that was the reason for the scouring of Aimia? Their access and control of the fabrial surge tech? And what if the scouring is why the ardents have access to some soulcasters? So there could have been checks and balances in place, but that check and balance got upended after the recreance, and the Aimians went into hiding.
@29 Doesn’t Brandon plan to eventually do a book on the original Odium planet with a disease based magic system? What if the “void” that humans brought was disease that the listeners had no resistance to, and said disease organisms have sence transformed (possibly even cultivated?) into the modern day Aimins, and no longer resemble what they used to do?
@63 BenW
So there is a lot we do not know regarding the magic system that was on Ashyn. What we do know is the people of Roshar referred to it as surgebinding, Brandon has confirmed it is similar in function to surgebinding but not in form, and that the current disease based magic on Ashyn is not how it always was. Now that does not necessarily preclude your theory because there is so little to go on. Your theory has a very colonization/native american feeling, so could be. I wish you luck with your theory! I will edit my post to add the WoBs I am referencing as I pull them up.
tyler274
Was the planet destroyed by the surgebinders Ashyn/some other Rosharan planet?
Brandon Sanderson
It was Ashyn.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
A friend of mine wanted me to ask: Was the cataclysm that rocked Ashyn and forced its inhabitants into the flying cities Investiture-based, and if it was was it Shardic in nature?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
The same cataclysm that the– did you finish [Oathbringer]?
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
The same cataclysm that they were fleeing, that they caused, is the one that forced people into the skies…
Questioner
So I was reading that one of the worlds, I think it was Yolen, is going to be a disease oriented magic?
Brandon Sanderson
It’s not Yolen, it’s Ashyn…
Questioner
How does that work?
Brandon Sanderson
Viruses and bacteria, various strains of them, have evolved in-line with the investiture on the planet to grant you a magical ability when you catch the disease, because they want you to stay alive long enough to–
Questioner
To transmit it.
Brandon Sanderson
–o transmit it. So it becomes part of the transmission vector. So you have superpowers or whatever– You can fly as long as you have the common cold, but when you get over it, you can’t anymore.
R’Shara [PENDING REVIEW]
So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
That was the diseased based magic.
R’Shara [PENDING REVIEW]
Yeah, before-
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
I’ll RAFO that. It isn’t exactly the same as it was.
beer_in_an_esky
1) Is Ashyn still operating on a sickness-based magic, as indicated in the readings you’ve done previously? Or are you not ready to canonise that?
2) Assuming it is, was the use of Investiture on Ashyn always sickness-based?
3) If someone who is sick on Ashyn leaves while still unwell, would they still have powers? How about any people they infect on the new world?
Brandon Sanderson
1) Ashyn still has that magic, though I’ve gone a lot of directions on how I want the culture to feel, so I wouldn’t consider that canon yet.
2) No.
3) The powers come directly via the micro-organisms, similar to other symbiotic relationships in the cosmere.
I’m catching up on a few months worth of comments due an extended vacation and not having time to catch up but…
A micro-organism based investisture???? EEEEE! I was once a microbiologist (before I got into software) so this is ridiculously exciting to me. I wonder if there are any plans to think about evolution. For example, in our own evolutionary history, mitochondria (and chloroplasts) were once single celled organisms that basically ended up making that symbiosis permanent and thus granting their hosts their ‘powers’ (generating energy, building carbohydrates out of sunlight). This could also go in a midichlorian/Force direction (an idea I always thought got an unfairly bad rap in the Star Wars fandom but I thought was incredibly cool and worthy of expansion). I hope he gets the chance to develop this into something broader than ‘diseases’. Because microbes are so much cooler than all of that. Lots of interesting studies about our gut bacteria, skin flora, etc that are a huge part of our health and even personality.
@Lisamarie, I read somewhere that Brandon was originally a chemistry major himself. Presumably this is related to why his fantasy stuff reads as SF sometimes.